How to Manage Change on the Plant Floor

Additional Resources

• The Prosci ADKAR Model | Change Management Model 
• How Johnsonville Uses Dozuki | Case Study
• Fierce Conversations | Susan Scott
• Why Your Manufacturing Digital Transformation is Destined to Fail| Forbes
  
  

Episode 5: The Voices of Manufacturing

Brian Sallee: Hey, everyone. This is your host, Brian Sallee. And today I'm excited to welcome Taylor Harlin. Taylor is the Learning and Development Coach at Johnsonville. Welcome to the show, Taylor. Thanks for being here.

Taylor Harlin: Thank you.

Brian Sallee: Excellent. Well, Before we dive in Taylor, I think you have a pretty interesting title. I haven't seen it too often. You're a Learning and Development Change Coach at Johnsonville. Could you explain what that is and what your role is at Johnsonville?

Taylor Harlin: Yeah, it's an interesting role. So essentially I coach our technical training teams. So we have quite a few different manufacturing facilities that we're teaching people how to make sausage. There's not a good wealth of experienced sausage makers in the labor market. So when people come in, we have to teach them how to make great-tasting sausage.

And so that's a large part of my job. But another part of my job, as well as to manage change. The changes that we deploy within our manufacturing facilities become successful by looking at things like how people interact with those changes and how we help people adopt changes.

With training, we're bringing a piece of new equipment or we're starting new processes and we're training people on those things. And we can teach them about it, but if they don't understand why it's important for them to do it, or they don't understand what's in it for them, or those types of things, then they create shortcuts or they can not be bought in. And that's really damaging.

So the training function has a lot to do with adoption and getting people bought into the changes that are being made. And so that's how my role became involved in change management.

Brian Sallee: Yeah. And that's really interesting because you don't see this at a lot of manufacturers where they actually have someone in charge of, you know, change management. You know, you see a lot of folks that are in charge of training. Has Johnsonville always operated like this? Or is this something that's been a recent change?

Taylor Harlin: Yeah, it's been a recent change. This role that I'm in uh, it's three years old. So on the manufacturing side, we've had change management around in our organization for some time, especially in our IT department. And we have another member who does change management for IT. But yeah, it's fairly recent development for us, as we just started thinking about some of the different changes we've made and how well those have gone over or how well those didn't go over.

Brian Sallee: Great. Well, with you focused on change management, I think what would probably be helpful for our audiences is to maybe give just a definition. What is change management to you and how do you guys define that at Johnsonville?

Taylor Harlin: Yeah, that's a good question. I think change management can mean a lot of different things. It's an industry that's been around for the last, I don't know, probably 20, 25 years. And there's been a lot of changes, even within change management, as far as what it even means. You see it in some manufacturing organizations and it can feel like a tick the box type of activity, where you're making sure that certain people are communicated with that. Everyone's aware of a change that's coming through before it happens. This is certainly a good thing to do because no one likes surprise changes.

But as time has gone on, I think change management has really developed into thinking about simply the people side of change. Like I said, when we start a new process or we want to modify a process that exists today, it takes people to behave differently in order to be successful at that process. Dozuki is a great example, right? We can sign up for Dozuki. We can deploy it within our plants. We can build great guides that are super helpful, but if people don't see what's in it for them and they don't use it, it's a complete waste of our investment. And it's really about how do we drive behavior and thinking through how people behave and what causes behavior change.

Brian Sallee: Yeah. And I'm really curious since you guys have already had this role, you had this role previously on the IT side. And now you also have it, more on the operations side, it sounds like. Is there a difference in the way you manage change, depending on who you're working with? If you're working with frontline operators, I imagine that managing change there is a lot different than managing change maybe with more of your office workers, your executives, people like that.

Taylor Harlin: Yeah. The science is the same as far as how behavior changes. How you approach it and the activities you do, and what's going to work with your target audience is definitely very different. Something like e-learning is not going to maybe go over as well with the folks in manufacturing as it does with people in the office, just based on the accessibility that they have to computers. If I'm in front of my computer all day, an email maybe works well, or maybe it doesn't because maybe I get a thousand emails a day. Or maybe if I'm on the floor, I don't check email all that often. So yeah, it is different.

I think the approach is very much the same. We're thinking about how people change in a very similar fashion and so on that, we connect and discuss. But the activities are usually quite a bit different or how we go about helping people through their journey of change is quite a bit different. And it's pretty interesting too because obviously there's a lot of IT changes that impact our front lines.

Brian Sallee: Yeah. And up question here, changed management where, it seems like it makes sense, right? We want to get people on board, wanting to help them understand why we're making the change so that, you know, they're buying in. What are some of the benefits though, besides just getting people to buy in and participate in that change? What are you guys seeing now that you've been doing this for a few years?

Taylor Harlin: Yeah. I think there's a lot of benefits and what's interesting is change management can be looked at as something that has soft benefits like buy-in and things like that. But it has very real, tangible benefits as far as being able to deliver a project on time or being able to be on budget. If you think about certain situations where we make a change and we communicate it or, we get it out there, we deploy it and then people don't use it. Or, it doesn't work the way we need it to because we didn't get the right people involved on the front-end. And maybe there were some obvious barriers to our operators that we just didn't see. And next thing you know, you're going back, you're reworking the solution and you're redeploying.

Or maybe you're following up with a group that you find out a couple of months down the road, isn't using the solution. And all of that impacts the project timeline and the budget. Definitely. And so that's where we look at the goal here is to get people to adopt the change. To get people to view the change as being something that's good or something that they're committed to moving forward.

Brian Sallee: And that's really interesting. So potentially if you don't, if you're implementing a new solution, whatever it may be, you're making a change to a process. If you don't run that process. Introducing this change, the project might run longer, might take up more company resources. Could prevent you from taking on new projects, is that some of the downside of not managing the change well?

Taylor Harlin: Yeah, I think there's also a really large sustainment piece to it as well. The people who do the work every single day, if they don't see the value in the change that's being made, they may comply with the change while people are looking and a year or two years, three years down the road, say that leader who put in that change turns over or go somewhere else, or it gets really focused or passionate on something else, that change wants to sustain because the people who participate in the change in who are actually having to behave differently, they're not bought in. It's not their change.

You can think about if we're going to change some of the processes that you do every day. If somebody else is going to change that, and they are not talking with you about how that could work or what that could look like and collaborating with you on that. Tomorrow they come in and they're like, "Hey Brian, I want you to do these things differently." There are going to be obvious roadblocks that you're going to see or things that are going to frustrate you about the direction we're going. And especially if you're not familiar with, why we're making these changes or that sort of thing. And so you can imagine the value of if they had included you further earlier in the process, right? So that you could help them to see maybe some of the things that concern you, some of the things that maybe won't work.

It also helps you to go through a process where you're starting off with, thinking about. "Okay, I can understand why we're doing this," and start to build some of your buy-in and your motivation to see this change through. And, ultimately that gets you to a point where you can start learning about the new change and how you're going to behave differently and move on to practicing and gaining the ability.

Brian Sallee: So it sounds like, allowing the folks who are going to be impacted by the change to participate, is that a key step in this change management process? And really we could go through and maybe you could give how you go about planning for change management. Maybe that's a better way for us to go down this track.

Taylor Harlin: Yeah, I think to answer your question, it doesn't have to be a key step in change management. It's one of the ways that we manage change here at Johnsonville. There are certain times where change is confidential up until about the point where it can launch and there are strategies for how you manage that as well. It is an interesting case study I was able to attend. It was the folks at Whole Foods talking about when Amazon acquired them and how they manage that change because obviously, it was confidential information. There's only a handful of people that knew that acquisition was happening.

But also at the flip of a switch, Whole Foods had to be able to deliver food to certain networks of people. And so how do you get your systems ready for that and that sort of thing? They basically ran some mock trials and said what could it mean if we did do something like this, we wanted to start delivering to people. And it helped the people within Whole Foods see the benefits of being able to expand their business in that realm. And then when the change was made, it was much less surprising for people. And they already were on board with the key principles of why that was important. I think, there are definitely many models out there to follow as far as how you manage change. There are definitely cases for each one, some fit better for certain changes than others.

If you're looking at business transformation or a lot of little changes that are going to happen over a period of time, that's going to take your business from A to B, John Kotter has a lot of really good content on that. For individual changes, my preference has been to use the Prosci model. So they follow ADKAR, which is the individual change journey. So it focuses on each individual person and it talks about the science behind how the brain works.

And so the first step for people is to understand why we're doing something. They called that the awareness stage. Then you move into desire, and that's somebody's decision to participate and engage in the change. And that's probably a hard part because we can influence people's desire or decision to engage in a change, but we can't make up people's minds for them. I mean, It's one of the few areas where we have very little impact.

And then you move into knowledge. And this is the spot where a lot of people, a lot of companies try to start. It's definitely where we tried to start for a long time because knowledge is where training comes into play. And we're teaching people how to change and it's the training session. It's the e-learnings. It's all those types of things. If you start at knowledge and you don't start with why and allowing people time to buy into the change or build their desire for change. Then a lot of times, knowledge can just go right out the back of your head. Then it moves into ability, which is them applying the knowledge, right?

It's like we can all know diet and exercise will help us to lose weight, but if we don't apply the principles of diet and exercise, we won't actually lose any weight. I can read as many diet books as I want to, but if I don't diet then, I'm going to see no results. And the same is true here. And what's interesting as well for people who are very results-oriented to understand is that there's a lot of activity in helping people to understand why they'll desire and to train them. You will not see a single result throughout any of those stages of the change. All of your results happen within the ability and reinforcement stages when people are actually behaving different.

And then the reinforcement changes that sustainment piece. So it's how do you anchor this into your culture and make it something that you do going forward so that when you leave the change sustains and we're able to maintain positive change and kind of set a benchmark and continue to improve off of that.

And it aligns very well with a lot of the continuous improvement cycles. You think about PDCA being a cycle that, it helps us to level up and set benchmarks so that we can continue to do. Move forward and standard work is a big part of that. We're improving processes out on the floor. That standard work is that benchmark that helps us to hold in place so that we can continue to make changes forward versus sliding backwards. So a lot of times that's the same purpose of reinforcement as well.

Brian Sallee: Excellent. Yeah, there's a lot there for us to unpack. I think one of the things I'm really interested in understanding is, the communication side, you're going to make a change. How do you let people know that this change is coming and that's the first step, right? And then after that, it's making sure that they have the desired. To make that change, but how do you tackle that communication?

I'm really interested in frontline operators, so folks that are working on the plant floor, who probably don't have an email, company email address, the ways that you are able to communicate with them are very limited. What are your guys' techniques in that area?

Taylor Harlin: Yeah, I think there are two big things to understand about communication, especially within manufacturing. And the first thing is that leaders are people first before they're leaders, right? There's a lot of times where we're making changes and we expect our frontline leaders to just be automatically on board with the change that's being made. And then they have to go face their team and support the change that we're making. And I think we can appreciate that can be a very difficult place to be.

So if there's a way that you can communicate and help your leaders to get on board prior to them having to stand in front of their teams and talk about the change that's being made. That's really helpful. Another thing is, yeah, communication is so key in any setting, whether it's office or manufacturing. And I think we're all familiar with, the email blast that comes out, that some people miss and others have a ton of questions. They don't know who to ask, or maybe It doesn't feel safe to ask questions and that sort of thing. And there are two things to consider there's one way, one-way communication. There's two-way communication. And so one-way communication is going to be like a poster on the wall or, that email blast, even though someone could reply a lot of times, it's one-way communication because people don't or won't reply to that. Two-way communication is When people have an opportunity to interact and ask questions, that's much more effective because each person is trying to figure out why it's important for them and what's in it for them.

Brian Sallee: I had to ask then, what is an example of two-way communication? Is that getting everybody together in a conference room? Um, like What are some things that you guys do to utilize to way committee.

Taylor Harlin: Yeah. Yeah, it can be getting people together in a conference room. Not everyone has that luxury and with the pandemic and social distancing and that sort of thing, that's been really tough for us. But yeah, it can be getting people together in a conference room, it could be focus groups, it could be one-on-one conversations. Anywhere that the person who is being communicated to has the opportunity to respond and as a safe environment for them to respond.

Brian Sallee: Yeah. And on that point, I think one of the things you see, when you get a bunch of people together and you're implementing a big change, is the tendency for people not to ask questions because they're concerned they don't want to look like the idiot by asking a certain question. Do you guys have any techniques around that to make people feel comfortable asking questions and being very open about their concerns.

Taylor Harlin: Yeah. I think one of the big things is when you communicate I'm coming in and I already have my mind made up on what's going to happen, how we're going to do it and the way it's going to go. And I come and I'm communicating that it's not very safe for people to ask questions because it's pretty clear I'm not set in what I'm doing. And I'm just, I'm coming to tell you about what we're going to do going. Versus a collaborative spirit of, I'm coming to ask you about how you think this could work or what would be the best approach for us to go do going forward.

And I think it's critical to be clear on what you're open to changing about your idea and what, you're not open to changing. Sometimes we come forward and we're like, "Hey, we we're going to try this new material, we want to know what you think. And then we let people go off and do that and then come back later and they're like, "wow, we didn't really like it." And it's like, "Ooh, unfortunately that's going to be the material for it." That's a terrible way to manage change because we weren't clear about what we were open to. On the front end. Versus, "Hey, we've got this new material we're really bought into using it for X, Y, Z. How can we make it work or what do you guys see as being barriers to making this work?" And that's a totally different conversation and it puts it in their realm of expertise that they have a lot that they can contribute to that conversation.

It's when you communicate that change is important and so if you do that earlier on and get people involved, that's very helpful. It's like I referred to earlier, right? It's when somebody comes to you and is working with you on a change being made versus delivering change to you. There was a phrase I heard a while back from the Association of Talent Development and they said people don't resist change nearly as much as they resist being changed. And I think there is a key difference.

Brian Sallee: Absolutely. Let's keep going on this communication side. Because this, I think is a really interesting point. You mentioned one-way communication could be like a poster some sort of message like that. You mentioned two-way communication. Are there any other methods that you guys use for communicating change?

Taylor Harlin: One of the big things that we do is we've got a, it's a, it's a shared document. So it's a running list of all the ways that people are thinking about communication and different forums. So anything from like focus groups, to posters, to bulletins, to letters mailed to people's homes; all these different things, right? And some of these things really catch your attention. I know recently I got a letter at my home address from the CEO, thanking me for a plant visit that he did at the plant I'm at. And everyone at the plant received this letter of his appreciation for how the plant looks and the people being friendly and happy and just the overall culture of the plant. And it really grabs your attention. Because how often do you get a letter at your home from someone at work, unless it's about insurance or benefits or something like that?

So that's one way, and that's one-way communication, but I think that's fine, right? Because it's helping to reinforce the culture that we're trying to build within this plant. Another thing that I think we're going to be looking into as this concept called industrial theater. And with projector technology becoming much more affordable and much more compact, they make these little projector cubes that you can put like SD cards or a USB drive in and project you know, an image up on a wall somewhere. And so that gives you kind of a fun opportunity to put it in the entryway and project an image of an upcoming change or something to remind people about something that's coming up and then maybe next week it's in the break room or next week it's in a hallway.

And just changing the environment even to help grab people's attention. Because we get so blind to a lot of the communications that are up, right? When there's a bulletin board, there are so many things on that bulletin board, you walk by it every day. It can be easy just to not see anything that's on there.

Brian Sallee: That's really interesting. So the idea would be to like, move this thing around this projector, whatever message you're displaying, move it around so it's just new to the people. Every time they walk in, it's in a different location, catching their attention more.

Taylor Harlin: Yeah. And, and you can use fun images. You can, as I said, I'm still looking into it. So I don't have a ton of experience with it yet, but I'm assuming you can cycle images and that sort of thing. It'd be interesting if you could play a video on a loop or something like that. So I'll have to look at what all is possible there, but I think it just, the example is just, there are tons of ways to communicate outside of email and a company newsletter or, having their direct leader, standing up in front of them in a pre-shift meeting, talking about something that they're not fully bought into. It's important to understand that, yeah, it's easy to just send out an email. You can do it in five minutes and it hits everyone and you can feel good. "Hey, ya I communicated." That's where you're ticking the box. You know, go talk to some people and figure out how effective that communication is. And think critically about what's the impact of that email or the effectiveness?

Think about all the emails that you get. People on the floor, if they're seeing those emails or not, or even if they have email accounts, right. And that's, that was one of the turning points for us was, just going out and asking some questions around, "Hey, did you see the email about this? What was your perception of it? What did you learn from the email? What's expected going forward?" You'll find that a lot of people, maybe aren't receiving the message that you're intending them to receive. If they're receiving the message at all.

Brian Sallee: Yeah, I can almost envision some sort of a scale, the significance of the change determines, the way that you communicate with someone. Like you're mentioning the letter or the industrial theater example you know, how are you going to grab their attention? Cause this change is so important. We really got to make sure we get their focus on it. That's very interesting.

I want to transition now cause we talked about communication. The next one, I see quite a bit in manufacturing where you have a lot of people who have been with the company a long time and you're going to do something that's going to change the way they work. And it's pretty significant, whatever it may be. But how do you plan for that resistance? Cause you know there's going to be certain people who just don't want to change because they've been doing it that way for 20 years.

Taylor Harlin: Yeah. That's a great question. So if we have a change, we know it's going to cause resistance. Or even maybe we're thinking it won't cause resistance. It's a stage in our process where we pause to think, "What are the resistances that are going to come out based around this?" And creating a plan for how we're going to tackle those resistances. And I think one of the key things within resistance planning is that people just want to be heard. They want to be understood.

A lot of times people think they don't understand XYZ and they're just making this change from, wherever they sit over there. And so resistance planning is, is just helping people to understand that we're here to listen to them. We want to understand what they see as issues with it.

I'll use Dozuki as an example. when we put Dozuki in, um, one of the key resistances within one of the plants that I knew was going to happen, was that people were going to assume that, "Hey, these documents are hard to find. They're tough to get to. Why look them up," right? They've got this whole history of the old documentation system, which we, you know, we had some struggles with, right? That's why we made a change. And people couldn't find what they needed to in a very quick manner, right? You're on the floor and things are going wrong. You need to have these resources at your fingertips. And that assumption is widely held within the plant or was widely held.

And so what we did when we communicated then and we were doing some training, showing people how to use the tablets that we were using and how to sign into Dozuki and find what they needed to. We also put up a contest. As to pass the tablet around, let people get their hands on it, try it out a little bit. And then we asked who thought they could do it quickly. And we wanted to participate in a contest. And basically what we did was, the fastest person in the plant gets an Amazon gift card. And, I can't remember what the, is it $75 or a hundred dollars or something like that. Relatively small investment.

When you're thinking about creating standard work and all the benefits that come with that, and as people started, racing each other to get to this to get to the work instructions applies to their jobs. We even had so much interest. We set up a booth in the lunchroom so that people who didn't get to do it during their pre-shift meeting could stop by the lunchroom and give their time to try. And the fastest person was like 30 seconds. And even, I think the slowest time we had was a minute and 20 seconds and it really quickly helped to dispel the rumor of," it's quicker for me to struggle with it, or it's quicker for me to just ask somebody."

When people could see that it was relatively the same amount of time to look up the document and they could get the information they needed from, I'll say like a source of truth. Um, They weren't really gambling on it. That really helped people to lower their resistance. And I think in a way it shows that we also understand where they're coming from, that they're frustrated with the amount of time it was taken in the old documentation system to look up their documents.

Brian Sallee: Gosh, that one's really interesting. Cause I could see it like accomplishing a couple of things for you where, not only are you getting people to participate and prove that it's not taking as long to look up those documents, but then now you've got this group of people who have experienced it. They went through and they did it. And they're probably going to go talk to other operators and say, oh yeah, it's not as big of a deal as you think it is. Is that like a secondary benefit you guys see from, those types of techniques?

Taylor Harlin: Yeah, definitely. As you find that people are getting bought in, they're gonna, they're going to spread the word of mouth is a powerful thing. Right. And you know, it breaks the script a little bit. It creates a memorable moment where it's not every day that someone comes to your appreciative meeting and has these tablets and is pass it around. And that, that might be fairly commonplace. Right? I mean, it's a training, so they expect that they're going to be shown how to use it, but then to turn it, flip it, flip it a little bit and say, okay, now we're going to do a contest. Who's the fastest one? And we don't give out gift cards all that often. So it's a special, unique moment and you touched on it earlier when you talked about, determining the size of the change or what the change is and how you want to communicate about it.

If we decided, okay sending letters to people's homes as a really effective way to communicate with them everyone got the letter from the CEO and they thought that was meaningful and it stuck out to them. Okay. We're just going to do that. National. Now you flood that patient channel, right? And now you get 10 letters at your home and you're probably agitated of stop sending stuff to my home when I'm not at work and that sort of thing. So it is important. And it's the same thing here. Right? If every training we did, we showed up and we did a contest and we gave out gift cards, it wouldn't be special anymore. It doesn't break people's expectations. So yeah. It's important to be strategic in the way that you use the different communication channels that you have available to you.

Brian Sallee: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And one more thing around resistance planning. I'm curious about, every company, every plant, whatever your organizational structure is, you have people that have been there a long time and are highly respected by their peers. Also maybe tend to be a little bit resistant to change. Do you identify those people and say, "Hey, these are the people we know we got to get on board and if we can get them on board, we're going to have a much easier time getting the rest of the team on board. "

Taylor Harlin: Yeah, sometimes. There's an activity that we do sometimes called Heat Mapping, which is where we look at the plant and think about the people in the different departments and their reactions so far to the change. As we've communicated about why, and you can see who's not on board with it and who is on board and identify who those influential people are. And yeah, you can definitely, as a project leader, spend some extra time with some of those people and just talk to them.

And like I said, I think a big thing is if you go to them and you're trying to sell them on it and you're giving them all these reasons, you may not make the progress you're hoping to. A lot of times people just want to be heard and they want to be understood. I've had quite a few of those instances where, yeah you're right, there are people who are really respected and they maybe sometimes don't see the reasoning as to like, "Why would want to do something different? We've been doing this thing, for 10 years or 15 years, that's worked really well." And we've got people here that have been here for 35, 40 years.

A lot of these processes that we're changing are processes that they developed themselves. And it's sitting down and listening to them and just hearing them out and what their concerns are and what they'd like to see going forward. And, at the end of the day, you have to be open-minded to be able to rethink your solution as well. Because a lot of times they have really valuable insights that will help you to make your change better. And that's where you come to it with a collaborative spirit and understand, that at the end of the day, if we can make this change and do it well, might not be my idea or the change that I initially started off with and have that in mind. But that's okay. If it's a better and more effective change in the long-run.

Brian Sallee: Excellent. Well, Taylor, this has been great. I want to ask you just a couple more questions and we'll let you run. First, we're going to transition away from talking about change management. I wanna know, what's one of your favorite industry or business quotes that you read often?

Taylor Harlin: Yeah. One of the ones that I think about a lot is a quote by Susan Scott. She's a, she's an author and it's out of the book, Fierce Conversations. And it's, "While no single conversation is guaranteed to transform a company, or relationship, or a life. Any single conversation can." And I think for me, the significance in that is, is not always easy to have difficult conversations, or it's not always easy to pick up and discuss something with someone. Each conversation just holds up the potential to change someone's life.

And for me, there's been a couple of different conversations I can think of over my career that has been life-changing conversations, whether that was someone pulling me aside and saying, "Hey, Taylor, we think you'd be great in this training role. And it could be a cool direction for you to go if that's something you're into." I, at that time, didn't have a lot of confidence that I'd be doing something like that. I was an operator on the floor and that particular conversation took all of three minutes and has really changed the course of my career and in turn, my life. I think it's just a really cool concept to think of.

Brian Sallee: Yeah. And what was the name of the author?

Taylor Harlin: Susan Scott.

Brian Sallee: Susan Scott, okay great. And then my last question for you here, based on the conversation today, you know, we talked a lot about change management. What's one piece of tactical advice that you want to share with our audience today.

Taylor Harlin: Yeah. I think just consider how you're expecting people to behave differently when you're thinking about making changes. Like I said, in the beginning, it's very easy to look at something like, "Oh, we're going to change our email system." It can be very easy to get wrapped up in all the technical aspects of that and how it's going to connect with different systems and how is scheduling going to work and all these different things. But at the end of the day, people need to be able to behave differently and people need to know this new system and know why we're changing and that sort of thing. And yeah, you don't have to be an expert in change management to have a really large impact, if you can just think through how you're expecting people to behave differently and seek to understand what the barriers might be.

Brian Sallee: Excellent. And you mentioned a couple you mentioned ADKAR, what were some of the other, and I know ADKAR, there's a book on ADKAR car, right? Is that there are some other change management books you recommend

Taylor Harlin: Yeah. So Prosci a is a research organization. That's where ADKAR comes from. It's a fairly popular model within change management. So definitely recommend looking at Prosci. There's a ton more within that and other models that they have. John Kotter for me was where I started as far as learning about change management and why it's important. And he's got a model for organizational change. Um, I also highly recommend the book, "Switch: How to Change Things When Change is Hard," that's by Chip and Dan Heath. And that one kind of presents a mindset or a framework to think through um, that can be applied in a lot of different situations.

Brian Sallee: Taylor, it's been great. I really appreciate you taking the time to walk us through change management and how you guys do that at Johnsonville. And again, thanks for coming on the show.

Taylor Harlin: Yeah, you bet. Thank you!